Thursday, November 03, 2005

No, It's Not Penis Envy

I am deeply fascinated with what it is like to be a man.

No, please. Put your Freud reader back on the shelf. I'm not talking penis envy. I'm serious here. I find the male presence fascinating. Utterly. Enthralling, even. This is a fascination born directly from my desire as a heterosexual female to get as intimate as I possibly can with the kind of man that I find intriguing--not merely, not even necessarily, sexually intimate.

I am a monogamous woman, and a loyal one at that. Though I have been accused of being a flirt since my latter years of high school (and readily plead guilty), none of my significant others have ever been cheated upon. I'm not marketing myself; I'm just trying to discover what makes men, men. Because it interests me. Because they are what is Other to me, what is alluring to me, what I will never be--nor what I want to be. I don't want to be a man; I want to know men.

I am not referring to "why don't men call?" or other such trite gender battlegrounds that people make gobs of money writing fuchsia-covered paperbacks about. I am talking about getting close to the male presence. What gives certain men the ability to draw attention without appearing to try to? Beyond assuming a certain level of hygiene and aesthetic unoffensiveness, physical mandates play a very small role here. Some men just seem to be so much themselves that they couldn't possibly be anything else--and they don't feel to need to prove it. It is confidence without cockiness; intellect with modesty. And it is incredibly appealing.

It makes me wonder how they see the world; how they see the room of people around them; how they see women. What do they see as inherently female--not in a sexist, stereotyping way, but in that way that makes them draw closer. What makes a woman alluring to them? What is female magnetism? So my fascination with the male presence is not only born of my identity as a woman, but also ties back into it.

I am not aiming to expand the divide between the sexes, nor am I trying to bridge it. I certainly don't want to perpetuate stereotypes. I think about what defines male sexuality for me because I wonder what defines female sexuality for them. It is insight that I desire for my life and for my writing. What do other women find magnetic in men? And what do men find alluring in women?

Labels: ,

posted by Jill at 10:03 PM

43 Comments:

  • For some reason I read this post thinking, only a woman would be putting this much thought into this.

    I like women. 'Nuf said?

    No? Ok. I like women with killer bodies, killer eyes, good hair, amazing minds, quick whit, independent, strong, fun, not high maintenance, affectionate, caring, blah blah blah. Basically it comes down to this, a woman that is her own person, with great looks and a great mind is attractive. Everything less is acceptable after a drink or 50.

    By Blogger -J, At Fri Nov 04, 11:16:00 AM 2005  

  • I think it's about confidence. Men are raised differently than women, even if we don't want to admit it. Here's something that has intrigued me lately. When men want something they go for it and do everything they can to get it. Now, this can be irritating if you, as a woman, are what they want and don't want them back. But the determination and drive generalyl speaking is admirable. I wish I had that ability to go after what I want without thinking about it so much.

    By Blogger Cheryl, At Fri Nov 04, 11:28:00 AM 2005  

  • When you find out the answers about men, let me know. As far as what I personally find attractive - it's something I can't quite put my finger on... you either have it, or you don't. At least, to ME. Just the aura a certain man has - confidence, strength... But I also need a man who will respect me and treat me well. There is nothing in particular yet everything in general that will attract me to a man. Unfortunately so far, every man I've been attracted to hasn't quite worked out.... ;)

    By Blogger dasi, At Fri Nov 04, 02:11:00 PM 2005  

  • J: That opening sentence was a joke, right? I'll reserve any further remarks until you confirm. Thanks.

    Cheryl & Dasi: Thanks for your thoughts! I do feel the same away about the aura, and it has quite a bit to do with confidence. An appropriate level of confidence expressed in the right way. That is what I am getting at and I know there are men out there who can try to express that same thought for what "aura" they find attractive about a woman.

    By Blogger Jill, At Fri Nov 04, 03:01:00 PM 2005  

  • Any specific questions to which you'd like to know the answer? I could give it a shot.

    By Blogger JTL, At Fri Nov 04, 03:47:00 PM 2005  

  • Yeah. Sorry. Sarcasm and text ... don't mix.

    By Blogger -J, At Fri Nov 04, 03:49:00 PM 2005  

  • Ok, now that we've gotten that out of the way...I guess what I'm asking is for the men to try to think of certain women whose presence they could not get enough of and try to define the ineffable (which is, by definition, impossible to do.) I want to know if men experience something akin to what I and Cheryl and Dasi have so far described, and if so, what does it consist of? Women overwhelmingly seem to try to express a man's aura by referring to a certain confidence. What do men see?

    By Blogger Jill, At Fri Nov 04, 03:58:00 PM 2005  

  • I stand by my original comment above - even the first part that was really said in jest. That is something I've noticed about women - they seem to think about *everything* a lot more.

    By Blogger -J, At Fri Nov 04, 05:27:00 PM 2005  

  • I dunno, man... this may be a pretty tough question to answer, seeing as how I walk around and see guys and girls together, and constantly wonder what he saw in her. So my pontifications are purely personal, and may not apply to the majority of my gender.

    For me, there's something I like to think of as the "twinkle in the eye" that does it for me. She has to be smart, quick-witted, slightly gutter-minded, and know how to read people to judge their reaction to things. Women like that make my stomach do somersaults every time.

    Does that help?

    By Blogger JTL, At Fri Nov 04, 06:39:00 PM 2005  

  • JTL: Yes, I'm really interested in what men think on a personal level. I'm interested to see whether the same things keep popping up as they do when I discuss this with women. Thanks!

    J: Does it matter whether women "think" about things a lot more in the context of this discussion? Can it not be taken as a "given" that I have admitted that I am thinking about it so that we can move onto the discussion of what it is that you claim I am over-thinking? Honestly, that comment makes me feel as if you are dismissing my question, almost as if you think I am somehow--to use a cliche, which I hate doing--"beating a dead horse." I am sincerely curious. I understand if you feel as if it is something you can't put words to, but I assure you this inquiry has just as much to do with my identity as a playwright as it does with my identity as a woman.

    By Blogger Jill, At Fri Nov 04, 11:04:00 PM 2005  

  • Here's my shot... Pheromones.
    There I said it... I dropped the P word. See if this makes since... I see you, Jill, cuddling up to your Father as he sits down in his favorite chair for the evening. Grabbing both arms around his neck when he first walks in the door... the mere musky maleness of his shirt... clothes... these things make you feel protected... safe... happily secure. Pheromones! Your father's smell is in the ipod of your brain. The nearness of a man can turn that ipod on and you become little jill... daddy's girl... and I think the Big grown up girl in you... the seciure "I am woman" persona... melts away and you long for the closeness of that musky maleness wrapping around you like a big secure comforter and a mug of hot chocolate on a cold day.

    that and you're horny :)

    romey (now go call your daddy)

    By Blogger Romeo Jensen, At Sat Nov 05, 05:34:00 AM 2005  

  • Jill ~ It's not a dismissal at all. I respect the fact that this is an important topic to you. However, it appears to me to be ...

    Alright, there's an old joke about the difference between a guy and a girl after a first date. The girl goes home and discusses the date in detail with all of her girlfriends. Questioning each aspect of the date. "What did that mean?" "He said [blank]." The guy goes home, starts playing some video games or watching the game with his friends and when asked about the date he says, it was cool.

    I'm not dismissing your question, though.

    However, this question ties right back into one of the comments I left on your post about bad boys or something about one month ago. It ignores the psychological reasons and subconcious reasons that will attract someone to another. For example, the codependent that is always attracted to the addictive personality type. The person afraid of commitment that is attracted to the person that could never actually commit.

    Of course there are factors that we deem important about the person to which we will be "ideally" attracted. I have listed some of mine in my initial comment here. However, there are always the underlying ones that are often ignored - as they are left unaddressed.

    By Blogger -J, At Sat Nov 05, 08:33:00 AM 2005  

  • Romey: Obviously you are correct in that pheromones play a role, but actually experiments have shown that women avoid scents that are similar to their fathers/brothers. It appears we are searching for a mate whose MHC genes (the ones that detect foreign organisms like bacteria) are LEAST like our own, so that mating with them will give our offspring the most variation in this genetic complex and thus give the offspring the best chance at survival. THUS, the people who we would be most strongly attracted to would smell LEAST like daddy.

    But frankly, Romey, I just want to know what makes you look at a woman and say, "wow, that's a woman I need to get closer to."

    By Blogger Jill, At Sat Nov 05, 11:18:00 AM 2005  

  • Oh and, J, thanks for the lesson in psychoanalysis. I understand this. I also understand that you are trying to answer my question in a universal way and you are therefore seeing the impossibility of the very notion. So let me make it more specific for you: for YOU, can YOU identify what makes YOU see a woman and think "Wow, there's a woman I need to get closer to." Details. Think back to a moment you were most magnetically drawn to someone and let me know what made it so irresistable. The moment the woman did something. Thank you!

    By Blogger Jill, At Sat Nov 05, 11:24:00 AM 2005  

  • oh... why didnt you just ask... Im a butt man :)

    sorry jillybaby but that's exactly as shallow as us guys are

    romey

    By Blogger Romeo Jensen, At Sat Nov 05, 01:36:00 PM 2005  

  • But I already did. My first comment, waaay back there says exactly what I find attractive in a woman.

    By Blogger -J, At Sat Nov 05, 05:31:00 PM 2005  

  • I'm an eyes-and-mannerisms man, myself.

    By Blogger JTL, At Sat Nov 05, 05:33:00 PM 2005  

  • I would hate to think that the women who have drawn me, and about whom I've been inspired to write (or especially those about whom I'm afraid to write) could be defined by a set of similar characteristics. In terms of shapes, sizes, hair color, there just isn't any commonality. I'm drawn to kindness, to thoughtfulness, to humor. I'm very much attracted to women with a sense of history, who have had to overcome some barrier or tragedy. I could go on and on about the allure of frustration, but it's hard to explain what I mean by this. It can be written well, though, and there are blogs out there by women that do not include photos, but to whom I find myself extremely attracted, just based on their words. And that's not to say that I'm necessarily attracted to extreme intelligence, but rather a gift for communication. I guiltily admit to a fondness for neurosis.

    By Blogger ducklet, At Sat Nov 05, 06:15:00 PM 2005  

  • I have often thought about what would it be like to spend a day...even a week...as a man. I would absolutely love to be able to do that. And I'm almost positive the first thing I would do is masturbate.

    By Blogger Brookelina, At Sat Nov 05, 10:15:00 PM 2005  

  • Romey: Thanks. While I assume you can have a...uh...physical... reaction to any butt you find pleasingly curvaceous, I was wondering if maybe any of them were attached to a female that you just couldn't get enough of for reasons that perhaps you couldn't put your finger on...literally and figuratively...?

    J: I saw your very inclusive list, but I fear every time I try to explain myself more clearly, I sound more querulous.

    JTL: Tell me more, tell me more... (Grease soundtrack interlude...) What sort of mannerisms?

    Brando: Thanks. I wasn't expecting any physical commonality at all. I find your explanation very intriguing. I would actually enjoy hearing you "go on and on about the allure of frustration." I find it interesting that you mention the women about whom you've been inspired to write because what led me to this line of inquiry was noticing the commonalities (non-physical) that have surfaced in the writing I have done about a few different men that I have found particularly magnetic, and therefore, inspiring. You seem to have answered my subconscious follow-up question. (So are you psychic, or what?) Do male writers find themselves repeatedly drawn to writing about a particular quality they see in different women to whom they are drawn?

    Brooke: Me too! Thanks for visiting!

    By Blogger Jill, At Sun Nov 06, 02:36:00 AM 2005  

  • Hmm... well, let's see.

    Posture is a surprising one. I remember my mom pointing out a couple of people when I was little that had curved backs and slumped shoulders... to me, a girl who stands like that comes off as, well... a slouch. And that ain't cool.

    An expressive face and voice are good, too... so, basically, nonverbal communication is a biggie. If a girl knows how to raise an eyebrow at the right time, that shows me she gets it, and she knows I'll know she gets it. And that ability to read people is just so damn sexy. Rrrrrrowr.

    Those are two biggies that come to mind. More later, maybe, if I can think of any. Hope this helps.

    By Blogger JTL, At Sun Nov 06, 02:52:00 AM 2005  

  • It's all about personality, and lots of it. Granted, I've made mistakes in the past and went into a relationship with the sole expectation of alot of sex, but that ended with a psycopathic stalker who nearly had a restraining order slapped against her head.

    Confidence is just as important (atleast for me) as it is when women are looking into men. Presenting yourself in a way that shows you will not need to use me as a crutch is a huge plus, as well as the deep sense of self, not expecting me to define who you are. I don't want to sculpt someone into the 'perfect girl', I want her to be 'perfect' on her own accord. I want her to be quirky. I want her to be a little off color, and not exactly who people would picture me with.

    I suppose there are certian physical aspects that play a big role, but that's human nature. I'm not talking about breasts or hips, I'm talking about eyes and hands. I can't shake the attraction to them, the eyes and hands are undoubtedly the most intimate parts of the human body. To make eye contact with someone in passing is often a deeper connection than writing a book/performing a song/acting for years.

    By Anonymous Andrew's Hands, At Sun Nov 06, 10:09:00 AM 2005  

  • Very thought provoking post Jill. I enjoyed reading all of your comments as well as your original post!

    3T

    By Anonymous 3rdtimesacharm( 3T ), At Sun Nov 06, 05:41:00 PM 2005  

  • Life as a man is 2 parts manifest destiny and 1 part ambivolence.

    We are competetive and driven to perform, overcome, and succeed, but we also dont care if our buddies come over, get drunk, and piss on the fence.

    By Blogger Greg - Cowboy in the Jungle, At Sun Nov 06, 06:17:00 PM 2005  

  • Wow, how long have I got?

    As far as I can tell, asking what it's like to be a man is a bit like asking what it's like to be a human in general in many ways. I think we're on a fairly stretchy continuum. I mean, I read all the comments here that are from men and I think "I'm not at all like most of them" (I'm not casting aspersions on any of the men who have posted - I'm just saying I don't see much of myself in many of their comments). Nevertheless, I am a man who likes women, physically, emotionally, psychologically. I have had a number of very good relationships with women, a few bad ones that I wish had never happened and one very special one that I thought would last until we were both on walking frames (I'm talking about 1-to-1 'love' relationships here; I also have many women friends who I don't think of as 'potential partners' and whose company I enjoy very much).

    I am a man who likes perfume, melodic music, modern art, 'arthouse' cinema, cooking and playing mahjongg. I also like whisky, mathematics, am a tech-head, am handy with powertools and am not afraid of spiders. I don't consider myself macho but neither am I in the least bit gay.

    I find the term 'metrosexual' idiotic, and the term 'technosexual' glib and try-hard.

    I feel no need to prove my 'maleness' because I have no insecurities about it.

    So I can tell you what it is to be like me as a man: it's great. I like it. I like that I find women attractive. I like that I can get turned on viscerally by a woman. I like the shape of women, their smell, their voices. I like smart, vivacious, confident, funny women. I'm not afraid of intelligent women. I don't particularly get on with vapid, boring pretty women, but then I don't get on with vapid boring people in general.

    That's the short answer...

    So, what's it like to be a woman?

    By Blogger anaglyph, At Sun Nov 06, 11:51:00 PM 2005  

  • Wow, you are all fantastic! Thanks so much...

    I've got a theater review due to my editor tomorrow, so I'm currently at work on that, but as soon as I can, I'm going to start drafting my response to "So, what's it like to be a woman?"

    Until then, whoever wants to jump in on this, feel free. I'm all ears... ummm... eyes... uh... whatever. I'll be reading eagerly.

    By Blogger Jill, At Mon Nov 07, 12:07:00 AM 2005  

  • what an interesting conversation...i wish i had something intelligent to add. i just like kissing. after all the good conversation and the innocent and not-so-innocent flirtation the moment of truth, as to whether you'll be thinking about him until the next time you see him is all in the kiss.

    By Blogger Amanda, At Mon Nov 07, 12:12:00 AM 2005  

  • ooooohhh... kissing... yessss.

    I think that will definitely come up in my "what it's like to be a woman" answer. You should write one too, Amanda! (Actually, I think all the ladies out there should write one.)

    By Blogger Jill, At Mon Nov 07, 12:17:00 AM 2005  

  • maybe it`s the way they are so sure of their mind. women tend to study a problem from a thousand angles, before coming to a decision. eeven then we still doubt if it is the right one. men simply decide. or so i think. i think it is the male gender that is hard to understand.

    By Blogger still_figuring_out, At Mon Nov 07, 02:12:00 AM 2005  

  • I would have to agree that the general fascination with men (as a species) is their confidence. Even if they don't have it, they seem to be able to fake it much better than women.

    I've actually never read this book (the title both scares and amuses me), but you might find it interesting. It's generally under women's studies and is called Dick for a Day. Evidently it poses the question of what would you do for a day if suddenly you were a man.

    By Blogger Serena, At Mon Nov 07, 08:25:00 AM 2005  

  • I know you've mentioned pheremones, but no one has mentioned testosterone. Despite our differences, I believe that the sexes have more in common that we think. But I do think the testosterone issue plays a big part in creating the "confidence" and aggression that is more associated with men than women.

    I've also thought many times about what it would be like to be a woman, and the mystery and glamour that is associated with you guys.

    By Blogger Neil, At Mon Nov 07, 09:16:00 AM 2005  

  • The thing I find most attractive in a woman is the ability to use the phrase "trite gender battlegrounds."

    By Blogger Dirk the Feeble, At Mon Nov 07, 09:59:00 AM 2005  

  • There's always taht whole simple argument of "Men are doers, women are thinkers." But obviously that's way to simplistic.

    I think that since guys spend so much of their life competing since it's in their nature as males, what they really want is someone that makes them feel as if they've won.

    For me the women I like are ones that do give me that feeling. Maybe saying that I feel like I "won" is to simple as well, but that feeling of completeness is something most people strive for. I want to find that person who makes me stop caring what color the grass is on the other side of the fence.

    guys usually need inspiration to do soemthing, to "win." A woman that we're deeply in love with is the ultimate inspiration.

    By Blogger Chief Slacker, At Mon Nov 07, 04:54:00 PM 2005  

  • I don't know that my thoughts on this subject will come across as eloquently as they feel playing about my head, but here goes anyway.

    One of the things that has always drawn me to the women in my life was a taste for the unexpected. Not knowing what is going to happen next keeps me coming back for more, and more, and more. When a women reciprocates that love for the unknown, you can't help but feel free to just be who you are.

    Those preconceived notions of how I should act, or what I am supposed to be like all of the time makes me want to start lacing up my running shoes.

    For me, it boils down to this. If we can't be ourselves with each other, then what exactly was it that we were attracted to in the first place?

    On a more shallow note, I like a women with delicate, well kept hands. Is that creepy?

    By Blogger blog Portland, At Tue Nov 08, 12:42:00 AM 2005  

  • plog portland: Yes, I have to agree about the unexpected. (Unexpected but not psychotic.) And no, I don't think liking well-kept hands is creepy. Cool profile picture. Thanks for stopping by!

    By Blogger Jill, At Tue Nov 08, 05:16:00 PM 2005  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Jill, At Tue Nov 08, 05:24:00 PM 2005  

  • Flameon: I'm going to check out that book. Thanks!

    Neil: Would love to hear you ponder the mystery and glamour of women.

    Chief Slacker: I think I know what you mean. I've found that letting a man know how successful or competent or winner-ish I think he is goes along way toward a comfortable relationship, whether it's romantic or platonic or something strangely undefined. Basically, when there's a man in my life I think is amazing, I tell him as often as I can privately, and support him publicly. Men seem to appreciate this kind of support.

    Armaedes: Your wit brings joy to my day.

    By Blogger Jill, At Tue Nov 08, 05:26:00 PM 2005  

  • On the surface being a man is a reflection of what those around him expect a man to be. Men are shaped in ways that define them: don't cry, don't show pain, don't appear weak is the mantr around a man's peers. For me, only with my wife am I allowed the luxury of showing pain, of crying when I need to, of appearing to have a chink in the armor. Most men have that veneer, but underneath it all I think most men are sensitive in their relation to the woman in their life. I think this relates in someway to you bad boy post, but I will have to think about that some more.

    By Blogger Daniel, At Wed Nov 09, 07:03:00 PM 2005  

  • Jack: The next act coming out, it's like only once every thousand years or so. you know? Like when did it start, like the first super, super, duper special awesome person? Wasn't it like Moses or something?

    Kyle: I say it's the guy who first wrote on the cave walls.

    Jack: Yeah, but we don't know who that guy is

    Kyle: I saw Quest For Fire, I think he was in that

    Jack: You got Moses and then another thousand years goes by....

    Kyle: Sir Issac Newton

    Jack....Jesus. Newton, dude, really?

    Kyle: Newton was like....really smart and shit.

    Jack: Yeah but jesus had super powers dude. Newton was just smart. Jesus could like...float...and .uh..make shit ...and uh

    Jack: and then another years later; Mohammed. And Buddha. I dunno, I think they were a tie...not sure of the chronology of the shit

    Then a thousand years later, what happens? This next act happens. F'in icons. The greatest band on earth. Ladies and Gentlemen:

    Tenacious D!

    By Blogger Agent Smith, At Wed Nov 09, 10:47:00 PM 2005  

  • Daniel: Thanks for your thoughts. I think it's related, too. I appreciate men who can be composed in the outside world and somewhat unpredictable in private. If that includes sensitivity, then all the better.

    Agent Smith: wtf? entertaining though.

    By Blogger Jill, At Thu Nov 10, 01:40:00 PM 2005  

  • A man who assumes he's at the pinnacle of his masculine development is probably not a true man, in the sense of maturity, anyway. The reason I say that is so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt.

    Some how I think the mark of a true man is defined by the obligations he chooses to take on. That or the priorities to which he makes himself answer.

    In other words, I don't agree with you that a man has no choice but to be himself. He does have choices, lots of them, he is a man because of which choices he chooses to make and which ones to waffle on.

    Outside of that, all that's left is a biomechanical contraption useful for lifting heavy things and impregnation.

    By Blogger Casey, At Tue Mar 28, 04:04:00 PM 2006  

  • I think you are 100% correct. I hope you will forgive the lack of detail in this post. I wrote it just as I was beginning to work with some of the ideas that appear therein and I did not fully articulate them. What I should have said is that some men do exactly what you describe because they have it within them, and those are the men of which I speak.

    By Blogger Jill, At Tue Mar 28, 06:20:00 PM 2006  

  • I don't mean to be lewd, but some men (myself included) have vulva envy.

    Let me explain: what I find fascinating about women is simply everything I do not have as a man; their deeply sensual and yet beautifully modest physical and sexual makeup for sure, but also their emotional and mental attributes as well: their ability to bond with other women in more intimate ways, their maternal instincts and ability to bear children, the way they're better listeners, and observe details that we as men miss.

    This is just a small sampling of things that fascinate me about women and that I truly admire and envy about them, to the point where I find myself asking what Jill did, but yearning for one step further--to actually be a woman, as only it would provide full knowledge of, and realization of them through experiential answers.

    By Blogger gdonner, At Sun Oct 07, 04:52:00 PM 2007  

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